Amy:  Nancy, I'd like to thank you for being with us here today, I really appreciate your coming to talk to us about Self-Employment.  Can you tell us a little bit about your experience and your background?

Nancy:  Sure.  Actually, I grew up in Mississippi during the Civil Rights Era and I think that's where my social justice interests was heightened and I certainly see a parallel between civil rights in the disability movement and that social justice piece.  So, currently I'm the director of a program that supports individuals with developmental disabilities and we have three Department of Labor grants and our focus is on Customized Employment and of course, getting people out of facilities and having a totally community-based support system.

Amy:  Ok, thank you.  Self-employment is offered as a viable employment alternative for people with disabilities and it's an option that's supported by the Department of Labor.  There's so much involved with self-employment or entrepreneurship employment, creating the business plan, marketing, finding funding, etc.  Given all these considerations, how realistic is it for someone with a disability to pursue this employment option, in your opinion?

Nancy:  Well, with all due respect, I think that question has been answered over and over again.  Carrie Griffin, who has done so much in this field, yesterday I was listening in on a DOL telephone conference call and he was saying he knows of 300 folks who are self-employed, who have disabilities with a 90% success rate.  There are so many positive aspects to it, in terms of there are some financial incentives through the Social Security Work Incentive Regulations.  There are also the positive aspects of that this person is able to fully accommodate to what their needs are through self-employment, whether it be the type of work environment, the hours, their passion.  So in terms of accommodation, it really is the ultimate in accommodation.  So I would definitely say it's a very viable option for individuals with developmental disabilities.

Amy:  Ok, thank you.  I know that you've probably been doing this for a little while now.  I don't know how long you've been involved in self-employment.  Can you give us some examples of the types of self-employment experiences you and your program staff have helped to facilitate for people with developmental disabilities?

Nancy:  Sure, they're very varied from, we actually work with someone who started as a recording studio, and I'm including individuals who have mental illness as well as developmental disabilities; a woman who makes her own quilts; an individual who picks up and sterilizes, folds packages, towels for about 6 beauty salons; an individual who owns his own vending company; an individual who sells manicure/pedicure products within a beauty salon; an individual who also makes fine jewelry.  Also a woman who's going to start her own business through a flea market selling international products; a woman who has started her own business with selling NASCAR products; and an individual who has his own business making keys, are just some examples.

Amy:  Thank you so much.   Quite a range of options or interests.  Of course, I imagine it's very highly individualized based on the preferences and interests of the people you're working with.

Nancy:  Exactly.  That really drives the process.  It's what that person's passion is, that determines what they're, of course, employment choice is.

Amy:  Excellent, thank you.  What role do rehabilitation personnel, employment consultants, and school transition staff play in supporting self-employment as an option for people with disabilities?

Nancy:   Well, of course, they're very valuable members of the support team for the individual.  The vocational rehabilitation folks have a lot of power in approving business plans which are critical to getting the funding to start up the business.  The school system is very key in helping identify early on and helping the individual get some experience in the world of work that can further define what their interests might be.  The one-stops are very key in that they also are a potential funding source for individuals who are looking to start their own business.  So, it's vital that those entities work in an integrated way and of course, the Department of Labor has several initiatives and grants that are promoting the integration of those entities to blend funding and maximize resources and work together so that the individual's able to achieve their dreams.

Amy:  I imagine when you and your staff first started doing this self-employment, what was the education process for you?  We've talked about writing business plan, marketing niche, looking at labor market to find out what a niche might be and is it a viable option again, you know.  What type of education process did you and your staff have to go through or was this information that you all felt pretty comfortable with and just started doing with people with disabilities?     

Nancy:  No, it actually was not information that any of us knew how to do.  So we first started out, we were very limited in the resources that we could put into staff training, so we started out with books based on the gurus:  Paul Wehman, Carri Griffin, Dave Hamis, Pat Rogan, Michael Callahan, the big names in systems change and it just costs us the purchase of the book.  So we began weekly training sessions going through those materials and we began seeing outcomes through staff based on weekly expectations.  In other words between today, our staff meeting, and next week, this has to be accomplished.  The outcomes were such that we were then in a position to apply for grants and we were awarded some grants that enabled us then to have money to bring in on an ongoing basis, Carrie Griffin, Dave Hamos, Melinda Mass, Steve Hall, Mark Hill and further refine the training that folks were able to receive including how to write business plans, marketing analysis.  All those business tools that anyone would have to use in looking at a small business endeavor.

Amy:  And I suspect that your learning's ongoing? [Nancy...oh, yes]  I mean it sounds like initially you had a whole bunch information you all were trying to figure and to learn.  But, would say that it's fair to say that you're still learning and still developing in the area?

Nancy:  Definitely.  Initially we focused on values and the concepts of customized employment business within a business.  Resource ownership and self-employment and now what we're doing is focusing on how to write pass plans, how to work with VR to ensure funding to make sure you have a very solid business plan, because they're a little bit more stringent in what they require.  So we've moved from the concept, the philosophy of those employment choices to that financial piece of writing really solid business plans.

Amy:  I'd like to ask you a little bit, because it seems like the change was occurring not only for the people that you were serving, but also for you staff, initially did you experience, you and your staff, some feelings of anxiety and concern about whether or not you had the capacity to do this sort of thing?  And if so, was that difficult to overcome and how have you found the confidence of your staff now?

Nancy:  180% or whatever that expression is, I always get it mixed up, total chance around.  Initially the staff were very resistant, very pessimistic, the weekly staff meetings, some of them were very stressful, very tense, and again what had to happen was taking this overwhelming concept and breaking it down into, "ok, what can we make happen between now and next week."  So it was breaking it down into very small stages that resulted in tangible outcomes that were achievable and then balancing that with a lot of support and encouragement, flexibility.  It was key to hold people accountable, so there had to be some bit of firmness in the process that this was serious, we were trying to change people's lives, you could, you know, not take this seriously and then as people started getting outcomes based on those very small steps that we would define, week-for-week, it became something that they took pride in and felt that they had achieved and then it became fun.  And it was a much more enjoyable process then just the standard supported employment, you know, typical fast food grocery store, that kind of thing that people saw this was a valued role for the individual and actually a career path because it was based on their passion and what they wanted to do in life.

Amy:  Excellent, thank you so much, I appreciate that.  How can Social Security benefits, such as plans for achieving self-sufficiency and the Ticket-to-Work Voucher system be used?

Nancy:  The pass plan is really a tool that can maximize resources for the folks we support.  So it's critical when you look at the folks that we're trying to support who are often living under the poverty level and have few resources because their benefits don't allow that.  So through the pass plan and even the irwe you can maximize those resources enabling the individual to expand their options through their business.  The Ticket-to-Work really hasn't been something that we've had a lot of experience with in Georgia and I know there's some kinks that I guess are still trying to be worked out with that.

Amy:  You had mentioned Resource......

Nancy:  Resource Ownership?  This is really one of the employment choices that the folks we work with seem to choice more often.  We have some very interesting examples, but the point is that we all have something that we bring to a job that makes us valuable, whether it's an education, then sometimes you have to have a car, you know, it's the resources that you come with.  Well many of the folks we work with have limited resources that they bring to them, because they have been in a segregated situation.  So through their individual training accounts, or through funds that are built, through social security initiatives, the individual can buy equipment, supplies, resources, that they own, that they can use in negotiating position with businesses.  Some examples would be, a gentleman who wanted to work with dogs, he was able to purchase through his individual training account, a hydraulic table and washing table.  It's his, he brought it with him to this Veterinary Clinic and he has a wage job on top of that.  So, it gives him some power in the employment setting.  The vet could not afford to purchase this, he was able to bring that with him and create a job situation for him.  

Amy:  That's really an interesting aspect of this that I hadn't necessarily considered before is the value added element of self-employment.  If you do bring a resource that someone else in the community may not necessarily be able to access or purchase themselves.  

Nancy:  Right, exactly. And we have probably 15 examples, very creative, espresso bar, a Bobcat where someone wanted to work in construction, a woman who's going to be an assistant manager at a hair place and she's going to run some hair drying sorts of equipment, an individual who wants to open his own carwash and he's brought with him an extractor, a type of machine that helps clean cars, a woman who has a computer lab for children in a daycare center.  So, some really creative options and it also provides not only power and confidence and integrity for the consumer that we're trying to support, but it also enables the staff to help the consumer negotiate some situations that are to that consumer's advantage.  That might not be negotiable in just a regular job.

Amy:  Ok, thank you.  I remember when I was doing direct services, you know, I had this mentality of a "cookie-approach."  You know what's the "cookie-cutter," just give it to me straight?  What do I need to do to make things happen or to make things work?  And really in employment, there is no "cookie-cutter" approach because of the individualization and the customized options that we pursue with people with disabilities.  Every scenario or situation's different, but if you had to say that there was a formula, so to speak, for success when you're pursuing self-employment with individuals with significant disabilities, what is that formula?  What do you need to make this be successful, to happen for people?

Nancy:  One thing.  Well the first thing is its key to make sure you start with a customer driven approach.  That it is what the person has a passion for.   Supported employment through self-employment may not be something everybody wants; you need to make sure that it matches the person's passion.  Of course that involves market analysis, making sure that what the person wants to sell, there is a, you know, pool of customers for that.  Also having a team approach of folks who are going support that individual in their employment endeavor, that's key.  And then also trying to blend funding to maximize resources that would be available to the individual for start up and working in a productive way with all those entities, such as the One-Stop, Vocational Rehabilitation Services, Social Security Administration, Work Incentive, entities to benefit the customer.

Amy:  Ok, thank you.  And your opinion on the flip side of the coin.  What do you think is the single most barrier or challenge when developing self-employment opportunities?

Nancy:  I think probably making sure that the folks involved have enough information about benefits regulations; whether it is Medicaid/Medicare waivers, subsidized housing.  Any of those sorts of things, so that the individual's benefits are put in jeopardy because someone wasn't knowledgeable enough about those regulations as they were planning.  For example, there are some restrictions on unearned income vs. earned income that can result in someone's benefits being just done away with.  So that's just the key, a lot of the entities that have to do with employment that we're trying to use in a generic way that would be available to anybody, don't have all of that knowledge.  So making sure that that benefit analysis piece is in place with experts who know about that and then also trying to work within policies and procedures that are a bit archaic now and really limit the individual instead of promote opportunities for them.  So that's the systems change piece.

Amy:  Right, right.  So the barrier then is not necessarily with the individual themselves, the jobseeker, it's the system and the personnel and staff and their knowledge?

Nancy:  Exactly, exactly!

Amy:  The focus on competitive employment involves a component of integration.  Getting people out in their communities working with other community members.  What's your response to someone who states that "self-employment only serves to segregate and isolate people with disabilities in their homes?"

Nancy:  Well I would say, first of all, any good thing can be done badly, but my experience is that self-employment is really the opposite of isolation because you have very, very many valued roles.  You have a relationship with a supplier.  You have a relationship with your customers.  You have networking that you do with other businesses.  So it actually presents the individual in a role of competence and a valued role that is different from opportunities they would have in other settings.

Amy:  In many of the examples that you shared with us, are out in the community.  People aren't sitting at home in terms of self-employment.  I think sometimes when you hear self-employment we might, you know, box people in as telemarketers or something within their homes, but that's not necessarily true, is it?

Nancy:  No.  Because there's in home self-employment and then there's self-employment where you are actually a part, a viable part of the economic community within which you live.

Amy:  Ok, thank you.  Based on your experience, if you were talking to a staff person who's never been involved in self-employment and their agency or organization was moving towards offering self-employment services, what one-liner, or what one thought or couple of thoughts, it's up to you, would you share with them as, not so much advice, but as wise words to get them going.

Nancy:  I guess it would be no different then any sort of systems change to a community-based focus and that is make sure that you have buy-in from the key folks, the CEO, the Board, because if you don't it's not going to succeed, that's one thing I've seen over and over again.  So if you're going to start something such as self-employment, you need to make that that's going to be supported by the leadership in the system within where you work.

Amy:  Thank you so much Nancy for letting us visit your program and what you do.  It sounds like a very exciting program and I really appreciate the time you took to be here with us today.

Nancy:  Well you're very, very welcome.  I've enjoyed it.

Amy:  Nancy, could you share with us a little bit about where you came from and how you arrived in offering self-employment or supportive employment services.

Nancy:  Sure.  In 1999 we actually had 4 sheltered workshop programs, I'm ashamed to say.  We had different experiences in how we went about trying to disassemble that whole process.  One of the workshops we just closed down, we had done a lot of reading and we just decided to take the risk and we just closed it down and integrated it with one that was existing.  Another one, we converted it to a community-based resource.  The third one, we had more of a struggle, it actually became a community focused kind of butting of heads and while we wanted to be very respectful of the families and nobody knows what someone goes through and we knew families were struggling, but they wanted this segregated program.  So where we tried to compromise and tried to figure out what we could do to move that along, it wasn't happening anywhere, so we just made a value-based decision and said "we're not going to offer this anywhere."  Within in our system, someone was kind of in the wings waiting to start a new sheltered workshop, which he opened up and the folks went there.  So that's the program that is closest to being a pure community-based program that we have.  It's very small, it's in a business park, and we've got most of the folks that are out in the community, most of the day they may spend a little time in the morning when they get there kind of getting organized and getting transportation to where they're going.  But it was not without pain.  It was a very difficult process, but all three were very, very different, in terms of how we were able to work that out.  I will say the one that was the most difficult, there was a faction of staff who was threatened by the change and they kind of organized to align themselves with families.  So it's real important to make sure that the staff are on board, as well as the leadership as you move forward, or it just puts families in a position that's, you know, painful for them.

Amy:  This is a four-year process.  Would you say you're still engaged in this change?

Nancy:  Definitely.  We've stopped the work activity.  We're opening up a business incubator in some of the space that we have that had been a sheltered workshop.

Amy:  And what's a business incubator?

Nancy:  It's where individuals who want to start their own business, can come and have access to secretarial staff, Xerox machines, can develop a portfolio, would have a phone line where they can make business contacts if they needed space to have a business meeting.  So we're in this processes of shifting...okay, this is what it used to be, we don't want it to be that anymore, so what supports are we going to put in place so we can further some of those efforts.

Amy:  Thank you.

Stopped:  25:42
AMY ARMSTRONG INTERVIEW WITH NANCY BROOKS-LANE




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